Curse

smilingscar · Feb 05, 2009, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Now that Mesmers have lost Shadowform farming and with everyone and their uncle calling for CoP to be nerfed (and it probably should be), I've been thinking that mesmers could use a little loving in the realm of PvE balance that makes better use of the PvE/PvP skill split. And we all love posting random ideas for skill balances; so I thought I'd make things interesting:

I'll post a skill, and everyone can make their logical/creative suggestions for, say, a day (unless feedback is sparse, then it may stay up an extra day). For incentive, I'll pick one suggestion at the end of the week that seems the most creative and balanced, and give that person a small compensation prize. Nothing big, maybe just a little booze, whatever random collectibles or materials I have on me, or even a random gold item I farmed that week. I could even make it more apropos and give out mesmer tomes

. The winner also gets to pick the next skill.

I hope this sounds fun to you guys too. Ideally, people could vote each week for their favorite (or even for each day), and decide things democratically. But that would be way too much work to implement I think, unless someone wants to do it for me

.This is not really a debate thread. You can post comments on other people's posts, but only if you submit an appropriate skill balance in your post. Please limit your post count to, say, 2 per day/per skill.

And...I think that covers it. Play nice, keep off the furniture, and try not to break the game. I'm really not trying to be pretentious or judgmental; I just figured we needed an intellectual stimulus package. And as a sign of good will, I'll try and pick an basic skill to start:

[backfire]
Does it pwn single targets? Yes. Is that really all that useful in PvE for a three second cast time? No. It also requires the foe to cast spells which can hurt you, help them, or are just hard to come by because the monster doesn't have a full skill bar. And to make the skill even more crippled, the AI works in such a way that monsters will never cast a spell if backfire would kill them. Thus, it fails to do the two things mesmers are there for: punishing, and preventing. Suggestions?

kostolomac · Feb 05, 2009, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Cast time 2 seconds , 15 second recharge. The skill is actually pretty balanced.

I would like to see something done about [Guilt]and[Mistrust].

I would also like to see some elites buffed , the only ones worth using are [Visions of Regret][Echo] and [Assassin's Promise].

jiggles · Feb 05, 2009, 05:51 PM // 17:51

AP is deadly arts..........

Rak Orgon of Beowulf · Feb 05, 2009, 06:35 PM // 18:35

[diversion] anyone? d-shot only disables for 20 seconds so i think 50 seconds or whatever is a little excessive. i say make it last for a longer time... and lower the disable time. [visions of regret]+[backfire]+[diversion]+[wastrels worry]=ultimate death.

smilingscar · Feb 05, 2009, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Cast time 2 seconds , 15 second recharge. The skill is actually pretty balanced.

I'll agree that it's closed to balanced, but I'd also have to say it's far from useful/efficient. There are a lot of things that could be done to it. The damage could be applied upon activating the spell so that interrupts can still be used. As it is now, Backfire doesn't work well with most domination spells ('cept overload). One could add in a way to limit damage from spells. Perhaps even a cap of 147 total damage per spell (i.e. SS stops hurting after 147 damage is done, or searing flames does about 73 damage because it hits two people). Some sort of AoE effect could be added at the cost of damage. It could have a chance of spell failure (like a caster form of price of failure or reckless haste). One could even rewrite the skill, "For ten seconds, target foe's offensive spells also affect its allies adjacent to the target, and its defensive spells affect your allies near their target." That's overkill, but you get the idea.

You're right, Backfire is almost balanced, that's why I thought it would be a good first pick. Though perhaps its too boring. This spell needs a little push to make it a bread and butter skill. But currently it's lame, and never makes it onto my bar.

But why am I the one hogging the suggestion box? And don't worry people, give us enough time and we can do aaaalllll the skills.

PS: I agree about guilt, mistrust, and would add shame. They should be brought into balance with wandering eye and clumsiness.

Gill Halendt · Feb 05, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by smilingscar

[backfire]
Does it pwn single targets? Yes. Is that really all that useful in PvE for a three second cast time? No.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fast_Casting

Quote:

Originally Posted by smilingscar

It also requires the foe to cast spells which can hurt you, help them, or are just hard to come by because the monster doesn't have a full skill bar.

That's punishment:

Within the context of Guild Wars, punishment refers to the infliction of negative consequences, figurative penalties, for a foe's actions

133 damage when casting a spell is a negative consequence. That really hurts when enemies heavily rely on spells (Monks, Eles), expecially since AI tends to ignore the effects of hexes like Backfire until it's too late.

Go for prevention (eg. Interrupts, Protection, ...) if you fear the effects of the spells cast by enemies. Interrupt those spells you don't want to be successfully launched at you and let mob get their punishment for any other spell they get to cast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smilingscar

And to make the skill even more crippled, the AI works in such a way that monsters will never cast a spell if backfire would kill them. Thus, it fails to do the two things mesmers are there for: punishing, and preventing.

What? Even if this proves to be true (which I don't believe is, I've seen tons of enemies exploding because of VoR+Backfire on them), isn't that great?

See... You have an enemy monk spamming heals on mobs. It ends up with around 100HP left. It stops casting, because casting one more spell would cause him to take 133 damage, which would kill it. Isn't that preventing him to accomplish his task? He can't heal anymore and @100HP it's an easy prey for anyone in your party.

kostolomac · Feb 05, 2009, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiggles

AP is deadly arts..........

It's still better than many mesmer elites.

Quote:

I'll agree that it's closed to balanced, but I'd also have to say it's far from useful/efficient.

It's useful if you get around the energy cost and/or recharge. With VoR and backfire any mob kills itself.

Quote:

The damage could be applied upon activating the spell so that interrupts can still be used.

That would be a big , and I mean a big buff. But VoR functions nearly the same as backfire and I think that this idea should affect both or none.

Quote:

This spell needs a little push to make it a bread and butter skill.

That skill is almost on any domination bar.

@Rak Orgon of Beowulf: Diversion's only problem is the cast time , the duration and disabling duration are good , almost overpowered. The reason it's not used is because regular mobs fights don't last that long to feel the effect of Diversion , the skill really shines against bosses because they don't die easily and every skill they use is deadly.

Hanging Man · Feb 05, 2009, 08:10 PM // 20:10

hows bout

backfire 10e 2c 30r

Whenever target hexed foe casts a spell, you steal 2...5...6 energy from that foe for 10 seconds

Kinda like [skill]Power Leech[/skill] but not as much energy stolen, increased e,and increased recharge, but I think its pretty good. tried to make it like a non-elite version of power leech

kostolomac · Feb 05, 2009, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Hm , do you know how much use does Power Leech see?

IronSheik · Feb 05, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

I think backfire could use a PvE version, because unless you're facing a group of 4 monks it isn't all that useful since things die too fast. A AoE effect with a lesser damage would do okay, [visions of regret] just only activates on spells, not skills.

kostolomac · Feb 05, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

I think backfire could use a PvE version, because unless you're facing a group of 4 monks it isn't all that useful since things die too fast. A AoE effect with a lesser damage would do okay, [visions of regret] just only activates on spells, not skills.

Something like:
Backfire:Elite Hex Spell. For 10 seconds, target foe and adjacent foes take 15...75...90 damage whenever they use a spell.
10e,2sec cast,20 recharge.
?

Bullets Mcdeath · Feb 05, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Assassins promise + auspicious incantation is the only thing worth using in pve, infininte energy, then add some pain inverter/cop/finish him spam. If you are really concerned about cast time just bring mind bender.

Anyway I think that the skill shatter storm should be changed, its kinda worse than gaze of contempt and its elite. I think it should be create a shatter storm at your location for 5 seconds nearby foes lose 1 enchantment every second, nearby allies lose 1 hex every second.

refer · Feb 06, 2009, 07:03 AM // 07:03

I'm semi-new to GW and a Mesmer is my first character... It's really frustrating at times (though because I can't do the keyboard still...) but I agree... PvE isn't that much fun because skills are not always so balanced. Hopefully when I get enough unlocked and much better PvP will be different but in PvE I'm competing for targets. Fast Casting is good to have because things drop too fast or the AI just mobs anybody I target within 1 second. Plus recharge times are slow.

draxynnic · Feb 06, 2009, 10:56 AM // 10:56

I feel your pain - my first character post-release was a Me/E, and it took until the desert before I stopped largely playing to my secondary. Admittedly, though, Backfire was still one of my main weapons along the road (typically, I was relying on air spells for basic offense, with mesmer skills for troubleshooting and utility) and the next time I went through, I was wondering why the monk boss in Thirsty River was so hard. Went down like a sack of potatoes when Backfire'd...

But I digress. Kinda. Anyway, Backfire is a skill I quite like, even if I don't take it all that often - it's great for dealing with anything that spams skills (especially heals

). The main thing it can probably benefit from in PvE is a decreased recharge - make it quicker to be thrown on another target after the first one goes down, or to renew on a particularly tough target. It could possibly do with a reduction in cost as well, representing that it generally has a lesser effect against typical PvE opponents, although it is worth mentioning that it typically only needs two or three triggers to make back its energy in the form of pain for your target.

kostolomac · Feb 06, 2009, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Many mesmer skills would greatly benefit from a bit lower recharge.

riktw · Feb 06, 2009, 03:23 PM // 15:23

yes, casting time is high because of fast casting
lower recharge will help a lot

Painbringer · Feb 06, 2009, 04:10 PM // 16:10

[backfire] While hexed with Backfire target foe casts 25% slower and receives 15-57 damage when activating spells. While hexed, if any ally to target foe cast a spell on target foe they are hit with 35-147 damage.

smilingscar · Feb 06, 2009, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

What? Even if this proves to be true (which I don't believe is, I've seen tons of enemies exploding because of VoR+Backfire on them), isn't that great?

From http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Backfire: "If Backfire would cause lethal damage to a computer controlled AI, casters will often cancel the spell just before it would finish casting. If the spell has a sacrifice health condition they will not take the sacrifice into consideration for canceling the spell. This can cause the caster to kill them self in a situation when they normally wouldn't."

Quote:

See... You have an enemy monk spamming heals on mobs. It ends up with around 100HP left. It stops casting, because casting one more spell would cause him to take 133 damage, which would kill it. Isn't that preventing him to accomplish his task? He can't heal anymore and @100HP it's an easy prey for anyone in your party.

Well, see, the thing is because it's a single target spell with high recharge the most efficient use of it would be to cask it on a lower priority target while your team kills the highest. No one wants to cast backfire when your team will kill the target in three seconds, they'd rather cast it on some random spammer that will take full damage. But that just leaves some random monster in the mob that you brought down to a hundredish health that can still hurt you or heal.

Quote:

That's punishment:

What I meant by saying it fails to punish is that it fails to effectively punish most of the time. It can punish, and punish hard, but let's say you're fighting Mursaat. You cast backfire on a Mursaat elementalist as your first spell. He casts one spell, and then your team kills him. Not a very efficient use of the skill. Let's even say you're awesome and had Assassin's Promise on him, so now you cast backfire the other elementalist, and he proceeds to wand you until he dies because he already cast his spells. Think back on how often foes die without triggering backfire and I think you'll also find it lacking.

Edit:I think we've come to an agreement that reduced recharge would help. Some think it should also be an AoE hex.

On to the next skill!

There's a lot of skills to choose from. I hope to get to all the ones that have been recommended thus far. I probably should do an Illusion skill next for fairness, but I'm not going to

.

[chaos storm]
This skill is a prime target for a PvE buff. We don't need the energy denial in PvE, and would gladly trade it in for damage or effects. We appreciate the cost reduction it got a while back, we really do, but I don't think anyone uses this except the monsters. How would you buff Chaos Storm to be playable but not the next Ray of Judgment?

moriz · Feb 07, 2009, 04:20 AM // 04:20

well, after playing through all the campaigns with a mesmer (and not dying once, legendary survivor here i come!), i've come to the conclusion that mesmers do not need any changes.

mesmers are quite good in pve. however, a lot of people PERCEIVE them to be bad at it. why? it's because the hallmark of a good mesmer is that nothing will happen.

by "nothing will happen", i mean that the party can continue rolling on forward, without the mesmer doing anything. or at least, not visibly. the standard pug players probably won't notice that the big caster boss no longer blows people up in two shots. they probably won't notice that annoying melee boss now folds without putting up much of a fight. they might not notice that an overaggro no longer wipes everyone. indeed, they might not notice that they've overaggroed at all. and last but not least, they most definitely won't notice the mesmer is doing anything other than some purple spell effects, where in fact the mesmer is flying at 250 APM, constantly shutting down the most dangerous stuff to allow the rest of the team to function.

(and before you ask: "wtf APM? this isn't starcraft!" well, mesmer in pve is almost completely about the APM. fast fingers means more stuff gets shut down)

and this is why mesmers are perceived to be weak. everything they do are not particularly visible. they can buy you a few more seconds to act, they can soften up something that's particularly strong, and they do it all while being completely invisible.

kostolomac · Feb 07, 2009, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by smilingscar

[chaos storm]

Make it a hex that affects all people in the area , maybe drop the recharge by 5 or 10 seconds.

Quote:

where in fact the mesmer is flying at 250 APM, constantly shutting down the most dangerous stuff to allow the rest of the team to function.

Shutting down with what when all the shutdown skills have long recharges (except diversion). Most sweet mesmer hexes have long recharges or are single target when most necro hexes have shorter recharges or have an aoe effect.

Shaving off some seconds off the recharge for some spells would go a long way. And don't get me wrong I do think mesmers are great.